E: OK, we're rolling. It's 8:17pm Pacific Standard Time, July 31st, 2020. I'm speaking via telephone with my friend
JL: Hello, E.
E: Hello, JL. You're all good with this, right?
JL: It depends what you mean.
E: You don't mind me recording this? And posting it?
JL: Nah. Anything for you, man.
E: Wow. You really are the best. Not just the best musical artist who ever lived, but also the best guy ever. I guess this'll be a bit of a scoop. It could really help promote my record, thanks, JL. I can't believe YOU'RE interviewing ME.
JL: We've been friends a few years now and you've kept the secret well and long enough. Why wouldn't I interview you? Pete Townshend's an old friend of mine and he really digs your shit. Tom Waits, too. That guy is as good as it gets. I mean, Joe Strummer called you a genius. Why are you always so down on yourself?
E: I don't know. Low self-esteem. Something from my childhood, I guess.
JL: Preaching to the choir, son.
E: Yeah, you get it. I just always feel like I'm not invited to the party or something.
JL: You probably wouldn't like the party anyway.
E: Good point. I don't really enjoy parties.
JL: Maybe that's why you weren't invited to the party. You don't want to spoil the party. I should write a song about that.
E: I think you did.
JL: Duh. Anyway, look, let me get this out there now: I like some of your stuff, but you're more my friend than someone I'm a fan of. You're pretty good, I guess. But, not ME good. Let's just get that straight right here. I was a pretty big act. Call me when the Queen gives you an MBE. No - call me when you're so big you send the MBE back to the Queen.
E: I was awarded Freedom of the City of London.
JL: Whoop-dee-doo.
E: (Sighs). Obviously, I can't compete. You know that the PLASTIC ONO BAND album is pretty much what set me on my path?
JL: Yes. You've told me several times.
E: Right. I guess I've mentioned that a few times over the years. Remember the time I drunkenly texted you "Let's you, me and Yoko make an album! We'll call it 'TRIPLE FANTASY'!" and you ghosted me for a year?
JL: That was the dumbest idea ever. Sometimes I question Joe Strummer's assessment of you. And I'm not a ghost.
E: Sorry. That's an expression young people use that means "ignoring."
JL: Ah. Then I'm just old.
E: Anyway, seriously - thanks for doing this. Do you want people to know you've been hiding out all this time, kind of like how you're portrayed in that 'Yesterday' movie?
JL: Whatever. As previously stated, I'm old. I don't have time to give a shit any more.
E: By the way, what did you think of that film?
JL: It was cute, but I wish they'd used one of my songs for the title.
E: Were you and Paul really that competitive?
JL: At times. But at the end of the day, he's my brother, you know?
E: That's beautiful.
JL: The other day I was watching the 'Friends' episode where Phoebe gets married in the snow and the steel drum player is playing "Here, There and Everywhere" and I got fucking goosebumps.
E: Wait. You watch 'Friends'?
JL: Of course I do. It's quite funny. Anyway, my point is, when Paul's good he's the best. No one can touch him.
E: I like to think I have a little of Paul's melodicism and a little of your lyrical...
JL: Uh, let's not get ahead of yourself. Also: fuck you. I wrote some pretty sweet melodies. Ever heard a song called "Dear Prudence"? Christ.
E: You know it ain't easy.
JL: Gah. Stop it. That's my department.
E: Wasn't "Dear Prudence" a Paul song?
JL: Please stop talking.
E: Hey, hey, hey - you're always my guy. You know I'm a John man.
JL: Then act like one. But stop sending me screenshots to show me how much of my stuff you have in your iTunes and asking to see how much of your stuff I have in mine. I have some, OK? Not as much as you have of mine. Not nearly as much. But I have some.
E: I like to imagine you're as into my stuff as I'm into yours.
JL: Imagine.
E: Ahhh. I see what you did there. You still got it! You know, you have every right to be self-referential, but, I feel like you're above all that.
JL: Above us only sky.
E: OK, fine. It's your game. The rest of us are just players. Hey, I feel like I'm interviewing you too much.
JL: Let's talk about you. No one cares about me.
E: You're still the funny Beatle.
JL: Ex-Beatle
E: Once a Beatle, always a Beatle, I say.
JL: Huh.
E: So, what do you wanna ask me?
JL: Right. OK. Let me look at my notes (sound of rustling papers)...
JL: It's an interesting time to put out a record.
E: Yeah. How has the pandemic affected you? I've already cut my own hair three times so far.
JL: I was just going to ask you that. But since you asked, it's been pretty easy for me. I've been hiding out for years anyway. It's really not very different for me. I don't go anywhere for the most part.
E: Like so many businesses, it's not a great time to be in the music business.
JL: Well, according to my Aunt Mimi it never was. She said "the guitar's alright, John, but you'll never make a living out of it." I feel like I got the last laugh on that one.
E: You definitely did. Well, these songs came about just before the pandemic hit and changed everything. I'm hoping they can be, maybe kind of soothing or something. To hear songs dealing with things we are dreaming about getting back to. Or maybe people are dealing with some of the topics right now as well. Just one song was done in the thick of the early pandemic days, "Are We Alright Again", which is kind of a quarantine daydream I desperately needed to have.
JL: I noticed you don't get political on the album.
E: I just don't find it something that I think I can do much good with in music. Coming from someone like me, it's usually preaching to the choir, you know? There probably aren't many Trump supporters in my crowd, you know? So it would just be for cheap applause. Also, I'm not a great authority or have earned the right to be a voice for some stuff. When I was a teenager in Virginia I wrote a bunch of songs about the old black community my mostly white housing development was next to. My heart was in the right place, but they were awful songs and I had no place thinking I could be a meaningful storyteller from that point of view.
JL: I read about that in your book.
E: I still can't believe you read my book.
JL: It was quite good.
E: Thank you! I've read about 500 books about you.
JL: You know more about me than I do.
E: I know more about you than I know about me. Anyway, I'm more interested in songs about the general human condition and life's constant uncertainty, and how the changes you can make in yourself and your own backyard might be what really makes a difference.
JL: That's good. I get it. Would you say I've done a bit of that?
E: Oh, for sure. You're the master. The teacher!
JL: I dabbled in political songs for a bit. Wasn't my strong suit. I don't feel like they aged well. Even a couple years later.
E: I'm all for speaking up and doing what I can in every day life. it's not my thing musically, but I commend anyone speaking up in music too, and for more mainstream acts, it could even be meaningful because they probably do have Trump supporters in their crowd. And obviously, these things come to a head for a reason.
JL: You're speaking of George Floyd's death?
E: His murder. Yeah. And I may have even tried to make a different kind of album if it had been made after that happened. I can't get over him crying out "Mama!" as he was being suffocated to death. So fucking heartbreaking.
JL: Horrible.
E: And it's so hard to watch all the good work the previous president did get torn down. Not to mention what's happening to Earth's climate.
JL: You're getting pretty political here.
E: It's not politics. It's just common fucking sense! And I'm not singing a trite song to myself that won't help anything.
JL: Yeah. But maybe you should, you know, give it a chance.
E: Oh, right... like peace. Okay, that one was pretty good.
JL: I have my moments. So, what is the deal with Trump? He seems like a real cunt.
E: You can't say that in America.
JL: I'm English and I can say it wherever the fuck I want. What's with the whole "Make America great again" thing, anyway? What is that supposed to mean, really?
E: I know. Great again after what? After eight years of a black president? It's fucking racist right out of the gate if you ask me. Look, I don't get political in these songs, but I'll say this: Donald Trump is the most corrupt, evil and idiotic huckster to ever live, let alone hold the highest public office in America. He's a stone cold lying, sociopathic mass-murderer.
JL: But what do you really think?
E: It's hard to not just let your blood boil over, you know?
JL: Yep. He's a knob.
E: I think you can say that in America?
JL: Let's make America more knobby.
E: I bet there are people hearing your songs these days who think "at least he's not here to see how things have turned out." Obviously this has been one of the worst years in recent history, in terms of leadership and how it has handled all that's happened, and I'm glad you're around, but at the same time I'm sorry you have to see it.
JL: Yeah, well, I'm here and it is indeed a real shit show. Let's change the subject. It's too depressing. How's your kid?
E: He's great. He's three now. Really bright and funny. He's into music. But the other day "Nowhere Man" was on the radio and he said "it's Elvis!"
JL: I thought you said he was bright.
E: He's three!
JL: Now, now.
E: You wish it was Elvis!
JL: Agh. Get off my tits.
E: I guess you can say that in America?
JL: Back to your album. You explore different styles of music on some of your albums, sometimes it gets pretty electronic, raucous and abrasive, almost... industrial? Is that the word? But this album is very tuneful.
E: Yeah, it's pretty much straight-up tunes this time. You guys were tunesmiths. And you knew a good tune when you heard it. I always thought it was nice that, although The Monkees were clearly a manufactured rip-off of The Beatles, you respected them and embraced them, even becoming friends with them.
JL: You've heard "Daydream Believer", right? "Pleasant Valley Sunday"? "I'm Not Your Stepping Stone"? A good song is a good song. I don't care where it comes from. Being cool is worthless in the end. One thing that won't matter one bit on your deathbed is how cool you were. Take it from me. I've already been on my deathbed once.
E: All excellent points, JL.
JL: I have a few questions about some of the songs on the album. Let's start with the first track, "Anything For Boo". You're saying, "that's our gal playing on the box?" What does that mean?
E: Oh, I'm talking about listening to Gal Costa, the great Tropicália singer.
JL: Ohhh! Right. She's fantastic. I love that Brazilian stuff.
E: Me too.
JL: And... are you saying "Tate singing..."
E: "Tay." Taylor Swift. I Thought it would be funny if I referred to her by a nickname, like we were pals, you know, JL? Have you heard her song "Lover"?
JL: Perfect song.
E: Right? Perfect fucking song. Anyway, "Boo" was kind of a fantasy about something I thought might become more of a reality, but it didn't turn out that way, so it remains a fantasy. Like so many things for us all these days. Boo turned out to be a ghost.
JL: So it wasn't even a double fantasy, let alone a triple fantasy.
E: Good one, JL. And did you notice I name dropped one of yours in there?
JL: I did. Thanks. Not enough people know about ABBEY ROAD.
E: Me dropping your stuff in my lyrics is going to blow you guys up.
JL: We're already the top selling act of 2020.
E: There you go. My song must've leaked early. You're welcome.
JL: ABBEY ROAD is pretty good, but I still maintain that I should've sung "Oh! Darling". Paul really wrote some great ones, didn't he?
E: For sure.
JL: "Anything For Boo" starts with the chorus, that's unusual for you, E.
E: Wow! You are really paying attention, JL!
JL: I just happened to notice that.
E: "Can't Buy Me Love" starts with the chorus.
JL: Paul song.
E: Sorry.
JL: And that was George Martin's idea. Anyway, I don't remember you doing that in any of your other songs that I know.
E: Huh. I hadn't thought of that. Could it be the only one that starts with the chorus? There must be some others.
JL: Don't ask me. As I said, I'm more your friend than a fan. I don't know every single thing you've done.
E: Like I know about you.
JL: Thank fuck I'm not like that. I really like the title of "Are We Alright Again". I find it really uplifting, the "again" part. It makes you think that, you know, you've been through hard times before, but they are just that: hard times. And time doesn't last.
E: Fuck, JL. Yeah, exactly. But I couldn't have said it like that.
JL: Well, I am John Fucking Lennon.
E: Oh, I know.
JL: Do you say "I can finally hit 'send'" in it?
E: Yeah. Like, everything's been on hold during all this shit this year.
JL: Ah. I took it a different way. As a man in his 70s I always have a hard time finding the send button. Or whatever you hit to send a damn email. It's always like, "finally!" Is that a marching band on the outro?
E: Yeah. There's a high school in my neighborhood, and Friday nights were often full of the sound of football games and the marching band, so it's part of my post-quarantine fantasy. The marching band is back and marching through the streets with me.
JL: Let's talk about the one called "Dark and Dramatic" for a moment. We've all been there. I think I was usually the dark and dramatic one in my relationships.
E: Yeah, it's not about men or women, or whoever. It's just about whoever is the dark and dramatic one. Sometimes it's both of you. A lot of us have shitty things happen to us when we're younger. But you can't be what happened to you, you know? You have to be what you choose to be after what happened to you.
JL: That's very true. I was quite messed-up from my childhood. And as a younger man I could be very abusive to the women in my life. But eventually I recognized it and chose to stop it and live differently.
E: That's a perfect example. Yeah. Or, like, say if one of your parents abandoned you as a kid and you grow up to be someone who makes sure you always abandon a partner before risking being abandoned again. You're just being what happened to you. That's not a good choice, and you're not fully alive. You're frozen in time and damaging innocent people in the process.
JL: That's another good example. In "The Gentle Souls" you seem to be the dark and dramatic one.
E: Definitely. But it's not an autobiographical song. Not to say I can't relate to parts of the story. On both sides.
JL: Who's playing the mandolin on "Dark and Dramatic"? P-Boo? The Chad?
E: The Chet. He'll be thrilled that you almost know his name.
JL: And what inspired you to write "Are You Fucking Your Ex", dare I ask?
E: l was having a conversation with a friend about sexual frustration and I asked her how she deals with it, and she said "I fuck my ex." I thought that was just an interesting term and idea and decided to write a song where I could get inside the mind of a suspicious, jealous person.
JL: I wrote a pretty good one about jealousy.
E: Yeah. Pretty good.
JL: So you liked that one more than "Attica State"?
E: I mean, come on. "Jealous Guy" is a fucking masterpiece.
JL: Honestly, I wasn't fishing. But thanks. I like the one called "Who You Say You Are". Where did that come from?
E: I was looking back at a time when I had written a song and later the situation that inspired it didn't pan out the way I had hoped, and I felt kind of dumb for writing the song. So I wrote a song about being more cautious about who I wrote songs about.
JL: I have a few like that.
E: Which ones?
JL: "Michelle".
E: That's a Paul song!
JL: Just testing you. OK, let me look at my notes here... (sound of a cat meowing in background)... Are you hungry, Ringo? Sorry, my cat's being noisy. Oh. Here we go... The guitar solo in "Baby Let's Make It Real" comes right after the first chorus. That's an unusual place for a solo to be in a song.
E: You really are paying attention. That's why I love talking to you. You understand this kind of stuff. It just felt like it needed to happen there. That's Koool G Murder on guitar. I sang the solo to him and he played it on guitar.
JL: I used to do that with George a lot. He didn't always care for it.
E: That's also Koool G on drums.
JL: Brushes, right?
E: Right!
JL: Koool G is very good.
E: That's gonna make his day. Nothing makes your day like Beatle praise!
JL: I'm not crazy about his last name though.
E: Speaking of, we've known each other a while now, but there's one thing I've always been hesitant to ask you about, and you've never brung it up.
JL: Go ahead, I'm an open book.
E: OK: well... It sure seemed like you got killed. What was that all about?
JL: It wasn't me. We used a guy from that 'Beatlemania!' show. He was expendable. Just kidding. He wasn't hurt.
E: Wow. Impressively pulled off.
JL: It was extremely orchestrated. I couldn't believe we actually pulled it off.
E: Did I ever tell you that my original name for the EELS was The Dead Beatles?
JL: Ah, no. You've neglected to tell me that.
E: It's true. And there was only one supposed dead Beatle at the time. My manager was adamantly against it and squashed it.
JL: How 'bout The Dead Stones?
E: There's already a band called The Brian Jonestown Massacre.
JL: Good name!
E: How did you handle George dying?
JL: It was incredibly sad. He was my little brother, you know? We were in touch. I got to say my proper goodbyes. All things must pass, indeed. But that was a tough one to let go of. I miss him a lot.
E: I bet.
JL: So anyway, this album is pretty good, E. It's hard to beat ELECTRO-SHOCK BLUES in my book. Or BLINKING LIGHTS AND OTHER REVELATIONS. Those are my favorites of yours. But this one's pretty good. For you.
E: Yeah, well, PLASTIC ONO BAND and IMAGINE were pretty good.
JL: Blah blah blah. Look, do you really think your best shit can even touch my worst shit?
E: I was just joking around. I didn't mean to upset you. You're the single greatest musical artist who ever lived, in my opinion. Didn't I already say that?
JL: It's OK. Just don't want you to lose sight here, son.
E: I'm very aware.
JL: OK, checking my notes... Ah, here's something. You've done so many different tours, it's often like a whole new act each time. Have you aspired to do tours you haven't done yet?
E: There have been late nights on the tour bus where we'll get really excited about, like... the EELS jazz tour. Then I wake up and think about how hard that would be on a lot of the audience and try to forget about it.
JL: What's a tour bus like? We always flew.
E: God. I get it. You were a big act. You know the first concert I went to when I was a little kid was George Harrison?
JL: Yes, yes. You've told me a thousand times. Should've been me.
E: But you never toured after The Beatles.
JL: That's your problem, not mine.
E: George had Billy Preston at the show.
JL: Ah, Billy. Did you know his big afro during that period was a wig?
E: What?!
JL: Yeah. What a talent. And he really made me and the lads get along better.
E: He was in the band on the Aretha Franklin Live at Fillmore West album. Know that one?
JL: Oh yeah, fucking classic. God.
E: is a concept
JL: Stop it.
E: Speaking of, I'm like you. I don't believe in all that. But there are moments.
JL: There are moments.
E: Have you seen the Sidney Pollack documentary of the Aretha Franklin 'Amazing Grace' sessions?
JL: There's a doc? I know the album. Amazing is right.
E: It made me want to believe.
JL: If there is a god, she was in the room that night.
E: Did you see Aretha play at The Kennedy Center Honors when she had Barack Obama literally crying by the end of the first line of the song? And then she stood up and took off her big coat to show everyone she was, in all her late-life glory, indeed, a natural woman... fuck!
JL: No!
E: It's on YouTube. I'll send you the link. Anyway, my sister took me and my best friend Anthony to George's concert in Washington, D.C. and he played one of your songs, "In My Life".
JL: That must've been the day George went to the White House, right? I saw him a few nights later at Madison Square Garden.
E: Why didn't you play with him that night?
JL: I don't know. Just wasn't in the mood, I guess.
E: It blows my mind that back then I only lived a four hour drive away from where you lived. I was 11 and you were a Beatle, so it may as well've been worlds away, but I used to think about it a lot.
JL: Wow, that's crazy.
E: it is crazy.
JL: No. I mean it's crazy that you think about stuff like that. You're crazy. Obsess much? Let's switch gears. Do you find any newer artists inspiring?
E: Oh yeah. Let me think... Oh, there's people like... Margaret Glaspy. Have you heard her? Great songwriter. The Dirty Projectors, I think you'd really dig them, very inventive. Father John Misty is really good. Um... Brittany Howard makes great records. Oh, Michael Kiwanuka, check him out. And then there's really young people like Finneas and Billie Eilish. While all the other kids learned how to sing the same as everyone else from watching the 'Idol' TV shows, those guys are just originals and really good. Hope for the future. That's just off the top of my head. There's a lot of good stuff happening.
JL: I've heard Bille and Father John. Like them both. But shouldn't he be Brother John and I'm Father John? I'll check those others out.
E: People are gonna be surprised to know that you've been around all this time and have been paying attention to music.
JL: I've been paying attention since I was a teenager. We never would've written any of the songs we wrote if we hadn't been keen observers of what was going on.
E: Do you ever sneak out to shows? Have you seen Nick Cave live? I think he may be the greatest living live performer.
JL: Um, James Brown, anyone? Prince?
E: I said "living."
JL: Maybe they're alive. I mean, you never know, right? But I'm too old to go out to shows these days.
E: Did you used to?
JL: Oh sure. I'd put one of my disguises on and occasionally go to a show if it was someone I was really interested in.
E: Like who?
JL: I saw a fantastic PJ Harvey show.
E: She never disappoints.
E: Have you heard the new Dylan song "I Contain Multitudes"?
JL: No. I gave up on him when he went Christian.
E: That was a long time ago! You're missing some great stuff. That new song is a masterpiece, if you ask me. And he's pushing 80! He did some critically-drubbed albums in the '80s. He should've just said "wait till MY 80s!" You could still be doing some of your best work now for all you know. Do you ever think about it?
JL: Ah. I can't be bothered. It's such a load of work, and then everyone's moaning and has some complaint about it. I did enough. I'm happier being done with all that.
E: Just watching the wheels?
JL: To quote a great man.
E: We talked a lot when Bowie died, I know that was hard on you.
JL: He was a real friend. And, fuck. The real deal as an artist.
E: Indeed. I'd give my eyes and balls just to write a chorus as great as "All the Young Dudes".
JL: And that was one of his throwaways!
E: Yep. I'm saying I'd give vital organs to match his throwaways.
JL: Sounds about right.
E: And what he did on his last album, no one's ever done anything like that. It was really phenomenal. Facing his end the way he did, in such a dramatically original way.
JL: It was too hard for me to listen to more than once, but yeah. Phenomenal.
E: Speaking of your iconic friends, can we talk about Pete Townshend for a second?
JL: Always happy to talk about him. What a talent.
E: What a fucking genius, right? I was listening to "Pictures of Lily" last night, a song about the salvation of a teenager masturbating to an old centerfold. It's a beautifully melodic song and the details - Entwistle's French horn solo emulating jacking off... and then the twist: Son, I hate to tell you this but - she's been dead for almost forty years. Who thinks of that?! Especially back then? And Pete's guitar tone. Always the best.
JL: As you know, Pete turned me on to your stuff in the first place. He is one of the greats, no doubt about it. He was always driving us crazy. Right when we thought we'd come up with the greatest thing ever, he'd put out one of his monsters. You know that Paul wrote "Helter Skelter" because Pete had just done "I Can See For Miles"?
E: Of course I know that.
JL: Ah, right. My own private library about my life.
E: Let me know if you want to know anything else about you.
JL: Sure thing, nut-job.
E: This has been so fun. It's still hard for me to believe we're actually friends. When I was a kid I used to fantasize about you coming to my elementary school just to visit. I had the hardest time believing you were a real person. I couldn't imagine that you actually took shits like the rest of us.
JL: Oh, I very much take shits.
E: I know that now. Remember that time you told me about clogging the
JL: OK, OK - enough myth-busting.
E: Well, thanks for letting me record this. I could get a lot of money on eBay for this voice memo recording.
JL: More than a butcher cover?
E: Maybe!
JL: Kind of shooting high having me do your album bio, don't you think?
E: I think big. Unless it's regarding my songs.
JL: What do you mean?
E: I'm happy to have a smaller audience that can appreciate my particular brand of unfiltered little stories.
JL: I feel like I did that with a pretty big audience.
E: OK! I get it!! You were a big act! But what have you done for us lately?!
JL: Touche'.
E: This is getting longer than that great, thorough Playboy interview you did right towards "the end." We better wrap it up.
JL: Ah, right. I thought that was a good time to set the record straight about some things before I'd have to shut up.
E: Well, now that you're speaking up again, is there anything else you'd like to set the record straight on?
JL: OK. Here's one. Paul really did die in 1966. It wasn't a hoax. Paul died and I didn't. Those are the headlines. And the guy who replaced Paul was very, very good. Maybe even better. Fucker wrote "Blackbird".
E: Wait. What? So "#9" backwards really is saying "turn me on dead man"?
JL: Affirmative.
E: And "I buried Paul" is what you're really saying at the end of "Strawberry Fields Forever"?
JL: You are correct, sir.
E: Wow. This is a real game-changer.
JL: That's always been my thing, son. I gotta go. 'Golden Girls' is on.
John Lennon is an author and musician. His two books, In His Own Write and A Spaniard In the Works received positive reviews and won numerous accolades. He was awarded an MBE in 1965, but only four Grammys during the lifetime of his band, The Beatles. Three more than Milli Vanilli.
01Anything For Boo 02Are We Alright Again 03Who You Say You Are 04Earth to Dora 05Dark and Dramatic 06Are You Fucking Your Ex 07The Gentle Souls 08Of Unsent Letters 09I Got Hurt 10OK 11Baby Let's Make It Real 12Waking Up
Baby Let's Make It Real/Who You Say You Are green vinyl 7 inch STREAM/BUY
